2019 Fleet Planning

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Jock
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2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Jock » Thu May 16, 2019 8:53 pm

Fleet Planning

York Fleet Changes 2019. This year we will be gaining another K21 which is coming up from SOSA under a financial initiative from Youth Flight Canada. As a result, the Grob 103 C-GIKI will be purchased by York from YFC and the Grob 103 C-FUZS will be sold after the broken front canopy is replaced. In addition, the Grob 102 Astir will be sold and neither of these aircraft will be available to fly this season.

Tony Firmin
Chairman Flight Planning Committee
Q ~ What is the planned status of PW5 C-GBVP ?
.

Biggles
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Biggles » Fri May 17, 2019 6:38 am

The plan is to bring it into YSA ownership next month, Whether we refurbish and make it available for members to fly, or sell on, is a (near) future decision for Fleet planning committee, CFI and Board.

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James Kingdon
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by James Kingdon » Fri May 17, 2019 6:49 am

Please keep it if at all possible, the fleet is lacking in the early stages of solo progression, and if we fail this group of pilots before the addiction has fully taken hold we will lose them.

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Tim Wood
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Tim Wood » Fri May 17, 2019 8:23 am

With the burgeoning interest in cross country flying, my fear is that sale of the single seat Grob will create a bottle neck with too many people competing to fly the LS4.
Tim

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James Kingdon
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by James Kingdon » Fri May 17, 2019 8:35 am

Tim Wood wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:23 am
With the burgeoning interest in cross country flying, my fear is that sale of the single seat Grob will create a bottle neck with too many people competing to fly the LS4.
Yes, that's a good point. Really we get to the core of what balance do we want to strike between gliders provided by the club and encouraging people to form syndicates around private gliders. I tend to lean towards the club providing two seaters (for both ab initio and cross country flying) and early solo gliders, and then encouraging people to make the commitment to a syndicate when they want to fly single seat cross country. I'm not suggesting we should have zero XC single seaters, but I think the bulk of the clubs investment should be towards aircraft that support expanding the sport through training and shared flying.

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Fri May 17, 2019 9:01 am

And an informed discussion of fleet composition would be well served by two things:
  • a strategic plan that reflects the consensus of where the club is, and where it is going, and
  • the former illuminated by how many hours each glider in the existing fleet was flown in recent seasons
Sadly, neither the Grob CS-77, not the LS-4, if I understand correctly, was flown enough hours to justify keeping them both. And if we were to succeed in promoting cross country, and found ourselves short of X/C single seat gliders, is the Grob one that we would want to buy. It can be argued that, given a likely sale price for the Grob, to not sell it is to buy it.

My guess is that it wouldn't be the choice of many.

So, again I urge the admittedly not-easy development of a strategic plan. And my starting point on this issue would be to define, as James suggested, what the club should do, for example, training and equipment to permit the X/C member to fly the 300 Km Gold Distance and Diamond Goal FAI flights.

Another thought, if we had the luxury of the budget to do so, would be to each year put up for sale the least used glider; let the 'market' judge.
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

Biggles
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Biggles » Fri May 17, 2019 9:40 am

There is a fleet committee, there is a strategic committee, there is a board of directors. Perhaps consider joining one or more of these bodies.

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Fri May 17, 2019 9:57 am

Your point is well taken, Dave. As pilots, we should appreciate the importance of efficient decision making, - after all, in the air, making no decision while considering and arguing the options, as we continue sinking at a couple of hundred feet a minute, would not be exemplary airmanship, would it?

So, breaking down the areas of responsibility into committees is well recognized as good management. And, as Dave suggests, join one of these committees or the Board and do your bit for the group as a whole.
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

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Tim Wood
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Tim Wood » Fri May 17, 2019 11:26 am

With respect to taking hours flown as a guide to disposal of gliders, that sounds like planning the future through the rear-view mirror. It's not where we have come from (historic hours flown by each glider), but where we want to go that should drive the disposal/acquisition actions of the club.

Someone once told me that a camel is a racehorse designed by a committee. Sorry, couldn't resist that one.
Hey Biggles,
Does the Strategic committee have a plan that the club is following?
Cheers, Tim

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Paul Moggach
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Paul Moggach » Fri May 17, 2019 1:23 pm

We all apparently see what we want to see. There is no evidence of burgeoning interest in cross-country at our club. While we go through some up and down cycles at our club, it statistically has never even been a driving factor in what pilots pursue in our sport, but rather an elite activity. Yes, those passionate about XC make their views known, but even where there are virtually no limitations to the type and availability of aircraft and training, it is only pursued actively by roughly 10% of the glider pilot population. While it is a requirement for a licence in Germany, the vast majority of pilots do not continue past the licence requirements. So while I applaud efforts to promote XC, basing fleet decisions on such arguments hold no water. There is simply no evidence that if you 'build/buy/try it' they will come.

The majority of pilots in the sport like to soar for a few hours around their gliding club, and not because of any perceived barriers to the XC experience. They do it because that is what they like about the sport and they are certainly not lesser citizens if they do not pursue XC. So yes the club should make aircraft available to pursue a range of soaring activities, having lots of single-seat, higher-end XC ships will only ever serve a small segment of our club.

Paul Moggach

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Stan Martin
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Stan Martin » Fri May 17, 2019 2:59 pm

There will be many opportunities this year for those wishing to tip toe into XC experience. We are fortunate to have a couple of very capable ships for the purpose and people with the experience to make it happen. And with simple adjustments, more can be done. In the last couple of Nationals a PW5 did very in the ranking. So I would not be concerned about our fleet. Having said that, you can only become what you plan for. So don't be dissuaded and plan to participate.

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Mark Lightfoot
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Mark Lightfoot » Sun May 19, 2019 3:20 pm

Charles, the LS4 flew much more last season. I will likely put at least 30 hours on it this season.

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm

It is the CS-77 that didn't, if I understand correctly, fly much last season.

Was it Jack Welch of GE who would fire his worst performing salesman each quarter? Rather harshly Darwinian, but an effective way to prune the weakest and thereby strengthen the team. A good strategy with the fleet too I think.

The Fleet PlaNNING Committee can guess what the membership wants, but the usage will tell us whether we have it right. Sure, allow a season or two for checkouts, and to try implementing various strategies/programs (like X/C training in the 500), but at the end of the day, the membership votes with its flight cards.

Very few hours = very little future in a responsive club. The only thing that doesn't change is constant change; move forward, or start to die.
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

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Tim Wood
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Tim Wood » Sun May 19, 2019 8:32 pm

With respect Charles, Jack Welch former CEO of GE is about the last person on the planet worthy of emulation. GE is a train wreck, being sold off in bits, having caused immense investor losses.

Tim Wood

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Mark Lightfoot
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Mark Lightfoot » Sun May 19, 2019 10:24 pm

Charles, members interested in developing XC at YSA should get together some time - plenty to talk about. The club also seriously needs to change its public image - move into the 21st century. Or, perhaps someone can explain how a vintage website with grainy photos of vintage gliders is going to attract the next generation of members and future XC pilots who would aspire to fly the higher performance singles.

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Sun May 19, 2019 11:47 pm

Tim, I wasn't intending to give investment advice, - rather I was suggesting we follow the maxim "Sell the customer what he wants to buy, not what you want to sell". And choosing BIG, voted-by-its-lack-of-usage least popular glider is a good choice for replacement. Tony can perhaps validate whether that glider got enough usage to even pay the insurance.

And Tim, if you want a moan about bad investments, I'll match you with Lord Black Heart of Crossharbour. But this is a flying forum.

And yes Mark, I think it would be a good idea to form a group interested in discovering and honing the skills of X/C. Starting with a morning briefing and choosing tasks for the day perhaps. Let's chat about that when I'm back at the club next weekend. And perhaps this group should consider an allotment policy for the glider for X/C hungry pilots. Overtime? Allocation when several want it for 'the day'?
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

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Rainer Zimm
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Rainer Zimm » Mon May 20, 2019 9:38 am

I think it was Jim Pattison and not Jack Welsh who followed that philosophy ... Charles ~

Just say'in... ;)

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Mon May 20, 2019 9:51 am

You may be right, and that would be consistent with Pattison's kind humanity, - if, that is, he fired the unlucky one on Christmas Eve.

I met him a couple of times, and declined to do business with him once. But I maintain there is merit in eliminating the weakest (least used/useful) from our fleet to upgrade and improve.

But, that's what we have a fleet planning committee for.
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

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Mark Lightfoot
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Mark Lightfoot » Mon May 20, 2019 10:09 am

Rainer: Yes, it was Jimmy Pattison. Brutal for the salesmen but a cornerstone to his auto sales success. Coincidentally, Pattison played a part in my pursuit of aviation. I got to hop a couple rides on his Lear in the early 80's. I rode the little jump seat the whole time driving the pilots crazy with questions.

Charles: Giddy up! Let's do it! If there was an organized aspect to XC at the club, I suspect more people would start joining in.

See ya soon

Alex Upchurch
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Alex Upchurch » Mon May 20, 2019 10:28 am

Now that this change has put a glass ceiling in the Fleet Progression Guide distributed last month, when will a replacement be issued?

Alex

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Mon May 20, 2019 10:45 am

Above my pay grade, Alex, but a good question. However, IMO, I don't believe that the CS-77 should bear on this, as it is a challenging ship for new to glass. But this is a question better answered by Wayne and Tony...
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

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Doug Carman
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Doug Carman » Mon May 20, 2019 10:57 am

I've been around a long time and can attest to the fact that few of our members ever get serious about cross country. Since gliders are now going for fire sale prices, and there's lots on the market, I would suggest that those who are keen about XC get together and consider buying a glider to share. Right now Ken's is on the market, BIG is on the market, and last year Tracey's Libelle was on the market. And that's just here at York. Shop around and see that there's lots of choices. Another option is to see if existing owners would like to have you as a partner, either full owner or "rental".

I would like to steer us away from having 10% of the members try to dictate to the 90% what they want to spend our money on. Historically the XC crowd are much louder than the rest for some reason.

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Charles Petersen
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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by Charles Petersen » Mon May 20, 2019 11:17 am

Oh, Doug, I think you are too modest.

You are not volume challenged :lol:
They will soar on wings like eagles - Isaiah 40:3`

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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by jwlemke » Tue May 21, 2019 9:23 am

I think XC could be a lot of fun. I went to the intro talk at TSC last Saturday. Mike was an entertaining speaker and I'm sure he generated more interest in XC. More discussion here would do the same.
Do we have suggested triangles posted somewhere?
What do people use for glide computer software? I have a Kobo here that I want to put Top Hat on. Once I get that figured out I'm happy to share notes.

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Re: 2019 Fleet Planning

Post by jwlemke » Tue May 21, 2019 9:24 am

Of course I should look before asking.. I see there are some triangles posted in the XC forum : - )>

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